I'm searching for a "prosumer" or low end dSLR to replace my Canon PowerShot S50. The first question I've found is:

Are all pictures from >10 megapixel non-dSLR cameras plagued by so much noise that it negates their increase in megapixels?

I chose a Panasonic Lumix FZ8 for my cowkers to use. When I look closely at its pictures, they are composed of noise; like looking too close at a Renoir. When I look closely at the 5 mp pictures from my S50, they are composed of pixels. It seems like there is no difference between the too; I zoom in the same amount and see junk.

Will larger CCD size and decreased megapixel help me avoid noise? The S50 had a 1/1.7" CCD with 5 megapixel. That seems to be much better than today's 1/2.5" CCD with >10 megapixel crammed in there. I see a Nikon Coolpix 5100 with 1/1.7" CCD, but it fails in other important areas. Maybe I can get an overstocked 1 or 2 year old camera with only 8 mp. But that's what the Panasonic has and it's noisy.

So maybe I should get an entry level dSLR with a "huge" CCD, like the Canon Rebel. I'm afraid of the complexity, but I want to learn. Choosing the right lenses seems difficult. I'd get an Elph/Ixus for casual shots.

Am I totally off track with this CCD size, mp count, and noise issue? Any recommendations for a good "prosumer" camera, giving me more controls so I can learn, but not overwhelmingly complex? Thanks everyone!

I can't really help with your question exactly but I do know the megapixels aren't everything. A lot of how good a camera is, is really due to it's lenses.

e.g. there's a reason those Mars rovers only have 1 mega pixel cameras (but very good lenses). Some of that may be related to reliability in a harsh environment though. Something I just found quickly googling: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3958138/

Yeah: date of design.

Cheers

I'd say that you are entirely correct in your assessment of the silly mega pixel race in compact cameras.

Don't worry about complexity with the low end dSLRs. If you take a low end dSLR and leave it in full auto mode it really is little different from using a prosumer compact in auto mode.

The massive range of lenses might seem complicated and confusing. However if you just bought the Canon 18-55mm and just left that on then you would a similar zoom range to the Nikon 5100 (but no where near the range of the Lumix, there is no single SLR lens that can get close to 36-432mm).

and need to harden said design against radiation and need for huge reliability and a number of other things

I have a Canon Rebel. There are a bunch of presets that automatically adjust the settings for things such as portraits, landscapes, action shots, etc. That is how I use it most of the time. Then, when you want to experiment with different aperatures or focal lengths, a DSLR will allow you to do that also. There really isn't a downside except the size compared to a point and shoot.

For the lens, I used what came with the camera kit for quite a while. When I wanted a larger zoom, I read a bunch of reviews (I think on bhphotovideo.com?) and went with one that sounded good for me.

I love my DSLR - but it's big and heavy by comparison to a compact. And 90% of the time the compact takes piccies that are as good.

As a compact I have a Canon S1 IS - very good camera (although there was a CCD warranty issue and my 4-year old one is in for free repair). I think there's an S5 IS now.

Perhaps it's the fate of all technologies to be climacteric fruit: to develop for a while, reach a zenith of ripeness, and then start to fade as mass-market constraints leave it uneconomic to make the decent ones any more, as everyone instead buys the flashy ones based on features they don't, in fact, actually need. We've seen it happen to keyboards, mobile phones, arguably land-line phones, and perhaps now to compact cameras too.

Or perhaps I'm just a curmudgeonly old cynic, and should go and take my place among the vinyl-record and vacuum-tube adherents...

Peter

Ages ago I had a Canon Powershot G2, which was considered a "prosumer" camera. Lots of manual features, but without the DSLR features (or price). I always wanted to use it as a photography springboard to bigger and better things, but I never got around to it.

It looks like the G9 is reviewed somewhat favorably. But I'm not sure how the price compares to a DSLR. You might only have to spend a little more for the upgrade.

I really loved my Canon G2 as well, still miss it sometimes. I'm really annoyed that they have taken out the swivel screen in the new G's that I liked so much in the G2. I'd definitely consider the S5 IS. Even though its getting on a bit, its got a long zoom, swivel screen, IS and the review is good.

Very tempted to get one myself.

How about the Sigma DP1 - would that be viable for you ?

Not to delve too deeply into complex photo technical jargon... Yes.

tanstaafl.

I think the idea of owning two cameras is the right idea. Own something small and pocketable, so you can have it with you. You can hand it to a waiter at a restaurant and they won't freak out. That sort of thing.

Then, even an entry-level D-SLR is worth owning. You spend less today on a Canon Rebel than you spent back in the day on a Canon G-series camera (I had a G1 and a G3 -- loved the G3).

Megapixels, as you've probably heard, are largely meaningless. I've got 12x18" blowups from my 4-megapixel Canon G3 hanging on the wall and they look great. That said, I'm seriously considering dropping major coin on a Nikon D3, but that's a different discussion.

I'd say that the reason to get a D-SLR is if you intend to start geeking out as a photographer. Any cheap D-SLR, from any vendor, is just so much better than any of the oversized point-and-shoot cameras in terms of image quality, lens quality, autofocus speed, and so forth, with the possible exception of the Sigma DP-1 and a handful of other high-end boxes.

If I was shopping for a high-end non-SLR camera these days, one of the cameras on my short list would be the intriguing Casio EX-F1. At standard six megapixel resolution, it can capture a staggering 60 frames per second. At lower resolutions, it can capture thousands of frames per second. That's pretty damn cool.

Thanks for all of your great suggestions. I will look into the Sigma and Casio. It's great to be around so many Canon fans. I;m looking forward to getting another after learning their UI from the S50.

Yes, I do hope to learn more about photography by buying an entry level dSLR. And a pocket camera to bring just for fun. Thanks!

If you're looking for very low cost, have a look at the Casio EX-Z1050. It's a 10.1MP compact with a larger than usual sensor, and really does produce remarkably good results for the cost. I just got one for use as an aerial photography camera, to replace my venerable Canon Ixus 4MP one, and I'm pleasantly surprised with the results.

It's also got an enormous battery, despite the very low weight (145g including battery and card), which seems to go on forever. In continous shot mode, it managed one 10MP shot every 1.4 seconds, which put 1000 pictures on the 4GB SDHC card before it ran out of space, and the battery still read full!

Not bad for a camera that's available for less than £100.

pca

Patrick, I've been VERY encouraged by the photos taken by your IXUS. I plan to get one as a pocket camera. But if I could only figure out how to take such crystal clear pictures! With enough experimenting, maybe I'll get it figured out.

I'll move the Casio higher on my list.

So, I've decided to wait for the Canon Rebel XSi to be released in late April. It's $300 less for the two year old XTi, but considering cost-per-use, why skimp on an older model? Or maybe I'll get the XTi but with the XSi's image stabilizing lens. I do like the button layout on the XTi better...

Question is:
Does it matter which camera shop I buy it from? I've often read to buy only from B&H Photo Video and other massive shops. However, I've got an Amazon credit card which gives me $0.03 per $1.00 spent at Amazon. Might as well get the camera there and get a free book that I need.

Still have to choose a pocket camera for me, and one for my sister.

I bought an S1-IS about four years ago. The CCD died just after xmas.

I sent it to Canon for an estimate and they sent me a spanking new S5-IS. That was nice

You won't have any problems buying through Amazon. The warnings are mainly because there are a lot of shady camera dealers out there, so stick with a reputable one. If you were buying directly from a shop, then you have to be more cautious and that is where the B&H type recommendations come in.

If you're buying the camera from Amazon, just make sure it's coming from Amazon "proper" and not somebody else selling through Amazon. At that point, it's just a matter of price, shipping, etc.

The reason I and others really like B&H is that they're entirely predictable. If they say it's in stock, then it really and truly is, and it will ship quickly. I've been buying stuff from B&H for maybe 11 years and I've been consistently happy with their service.

Oh, Lordy, YES!

When I bought my Panasonic, I spent hours combing the internet looking for the best buy. What a waste of time.

The main thing I discovered is that the internet camera gear sellers are, for the most part, crooks and lying thieves. I am sure there are glowing exceptions, but none that I found. I have no first-hand experience with B&H, so will accept the praises offered by the people here. Amazon is the "poster child" for how to run an internet business; you will never go wrong buying from them. But as Dan Wallach says, make sure you're buying from Amazon direct and not one of their subsidiary merchants, although I suspect that Amazon does a pretty good job of policing their associates.

What I learned from my experience is this: Pay the extra $100 or whatever and deal with a merchant you know from personal experience (or advice from a trusted friend) is honest, honorable, accommodating, and repeat-business oriented.

tanstaafl.

I just finally took the plunge and ordered a Nikon D300. Can't wait.

Like tanstaafl, I scoured to pinch every penny. I think that I DID finally end up getting a pretty good deal, but that was after checking a ton of sites against your best friend in these situations: http://www.resellerratings.com/

I bought the D300 and the 18-200 Nikkor for $2,220 - delivered. From us1photo.com - check em out. I also read a bunch of reviews on dpreview.com that gave us1photo the thumbs up, so I felt pretty confident.

Hope this helps...

- Jon

Just checked - their price went up slightly on that package...

http://www.us1photo.com/catalog/product_...116f13748c83c78

An awe-inspiring camera for those who can afford it!

I used the spare change from my 40D to purchase a 200Mhz colour digital storage oscilloscope instead, and still had enough left over for extra camera batteries and a remote control.

I win! I'll just keep repeating that until I believe it.. yeah, that's it!

The D300 is currently the best all-round DSLR in existence (except on price), so I'm sure you'll have tons of fun with it!

And I'll definitely be envious!

Cheers

Thanks for confirming this. Yes, I was careful to see the cameras being sold by Amazon proper. My experiences of buying things from small sellers through major online shops has been slow service and paying shipping for each individual item even when buying multiple from the same place.


No question about it. I don't want some grey-market, stolen from the warehouse, non-USA market, rock in a box. I want to get quality and keep it till it dies. I'll have my empeg till the metal goes through half life, Treo till its plastic turns to dust, and Rebel XSi until I get good enough for something better, at which point I'll sell it.

Thanks guys!

How can the Canon "affordable" A-Series line of cameras have more features than the ultra compact ELPH series?

Specifically, I would like shutter priority and aperture priority modes. The A's have them, the ELPH's don't. From my old S50, I learned to abuse shutter priority mode. "It's dark out, so set the shutter speed slower to get more light." These priority modes gave me a little more control without having to learn much about photo (which I will do using my forthcoming Rebel XSi).

Should I give up these features to get the ELPH, and better learn how to use the manual settings? Or settle for an A series which uses, gasp, AA batteries!!! No, I can't go back to AA's.

Input? Thanks guys!


<edit>
And why does Canon have SO many models. Maybe they're still listing their old discontinued ones. They're giving Garmin a run for their money.

FWIW, I wouldn't consider a camera that didn't have aperture priority, shutter priority, manual, and full auto modes.

But that's just me. YMMV.

tanstaafl.

My ten cents: If you're getting yourself a D-SLR, then having all the adjustable features in a "secondary" pocket camera is much less important. (Because, if it really mattered to you, you'd go get your "real" camera.)

Meanwhile, my wife has been grumbling that our Fuji F50fd has been doing a terrible job. Despite having a fantastic lens and Fuji SuperCCD sensor, it's just not very bright about deciding where to autofocus and what exposure to select. To replace it, I'm considering several of the Panasonic Lumix models (also sold as Leica cameras, but for more money). The new FX500 (shipping any day now) has a 25-125mm (equiv) zoom and weighs 5.5 ounces. The new FX35 has a 25-100mm (equiv) zoom and weighs 4.5 ounces. Both have a 720p video mode. The bigger one also has the aperture/shutter priority features that you want. I'm attracted by the high-def video mode and by the wider-than-normal wide angle.

Same here. I normally carry/use my DSLR, either with a small, compact lens installed, or a more full kit with multiple lenses and perhaps even the tripod.

But when I do leave the DSLR behind and use something smaller (eg. mid-way up a large cliff face, or just traveling light for other reasons), it is still very important to me to be able to control the exposure.

Lack of A-priority, or no +/- adjustments, or no way to disable the stupid built-in flash, or no way to manually-focus a macro shot -- those are all deal breakers for me.

And so many small cameras DO have all of those features (and much more), so there's no reason for me to accept a camera that lacks them. If I truly didn't care about them, then I'd just use my mobile phone's built-in "camera" instead.

Another important feature for me on small cameras, is they should accept/use commodity batteries. Eg. "AA" cells. This does make them slightly larger that they might otherwise have been, but then they can share a charger with other items, and I can easily/cheaply carry/acquire spare batteries mid-trip.

The extra size from having two "AA" instead of a proprietary Lion battery is usually just a small bump out on the "grip" side of the camera, which happens to make it easier to hold/use as well.

Cheers

I'd disagree with that. If I have those features, I might not *need* to go get my "real" camera. I might not even have time. Or be able to get it. I might want those features at a spot where I'm willing to risk putting my secondary camera in a location I wouldn't be willing to put my "real" camera (like balanced precariously in the fork of a tree branch).

If you're always just going to go get your "real" camera, you might as well not bother buying a "secondary" camera, and just use your camera phone for everything else.

Thanks for the tips. I've chosen the Canon Powershot A650 IS against a few better judgements:
- 4 AA batteries! But I'll use high quality rechargables
- Bulky/thicker. Still small and grip is nice.
- No review on dpreview.
- Twice the cost of A590 and A720.
- "Cheap build" says dpreview.

But there are a few great selling points:
- Bigger CCD. 1/1.7 instead of 1/2.5.
- Vari-angle LCD to help the awkward shots I often take.
- 12MP matches Rebel XSi for image size consistency.

I'll get an Elph for my sister (her film P&S finally died), so maybe I'll fall in love with that instead. Thanks again for your help.

I've received the Powershot A650 and have been trying to convince myself to like it. Unfortunately, it's bigger and bulkier than my old Powershot S50. There are a bunch of other annoying things about it. I have yet to test the image quality; can't get over the usability.

I can't find any other small camera with reasonable feature set: aperture priority, shutter priority, panoramic assist, good low light operation in a simple package that's easy to use with one hand. No Canons or Nikons fit. Sigma DP-1 is apparently too slow. Panasonics might work, like the DMC-LX2. It's odd that nobody is filling the "highly functional compact" niche like the old Canon S. My sister's new Ixus has the small size, but I can't go back to "take what it gives you" limited feature set.

Is it a shame to consider buying a 3.5 year old, 7 megapixel PowerShot S70 off eBay? Looks like the highest evolution of the S50 form factor I know and love (the S80 seems odd). Even used, they cost $150, half the $300 of the new A650.

Still trying to convince myself of what to do...

The Panasonic FX-500 claims to have all manner of manual adjustments in a swank, compact body. It's almost certainly got the same sorts of high-ISO noise issues as any other unnecessarily high ISO compact.

There are also several older Panasonic cameras that are co-branded with Leica. I think some of those have raw modes, which is a good thing. I guess the new Canon G9 also has a raw mode. The nice thing about raw is that it gives you some ability to make your own tradeoffs about noise reduction vs. resolution, never mind the ability to aggressively fix incorrect exposures, white balances, and so forth.

I would have suggested the new Sigma DP-1, but DPReview's review, which discusses how staggeringly slow the camera is, makes it sound like speed issues are a deal-breaker. Too bad, because it's exactly the right idea.

I suppose you could always pony up for a Leica M8...

"As it stands though the DP1 has not been developed to its full potential yet and can only really be recommended for landscape photography (and similar applications) in reasonable light and to photographers who can live with a frustratingly slow speed of operation and the other shortcomings we have talked about above."

Ouch.

I got a Canon SD1000 (just a point and click) but when I changed the firnware, I can do alot more like run scripts, change the shutter speed, the flash timing and all kinds of things that I don't even understand yet. You might want to take a look at CHDK. It is nice to have a pocket sized camera that has it's pro functionality tapped. it should be great for an empegger.


http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

I played around with CHDK on my SD870. Pretty cool. Did you try "zebra mode"?

With this, you aren't actually changing the firmware on the camera, just adding to it...

- Jon

Okay, that is cool.

I just put it on before going to sleep last night - didn't figure out the RAW mode yet, and didn't try the zebra mode - but after reading more about it today, it sounds really cool. Gonna play with it more tonight,.

Ok, that is far out. The biggest question I didn't find in the FAQ: Can CHDK add shutter priority and aperture priority to cameras which don't have it (ie: SD1000)?

I should just keep this A650 and get on with my life. I just feel like there must be something better...

There's always going to be something "better". The trick is deciding if/when what you have is good enough for you to be happy. From what you've written above, it sounds like you've already decided the opposite, so if you keep it, you'll just constantly wish you hadn't.

Nah, I'm going to keep it. The vari-angle LCD is going to open up loads of new possibilities. I've thought back on all the times I've craned my neck to get a shot, or simply had to skip it because I couldn't see the viewfinder to compose. Vari-angle will reduce much of that.

Like a new car, it will get better as I discover new features and get used to them. Thanks for all of your tips, everyone.